Interview: Djo - you are what you love.
Love is at the crux of everything Joe Keery. It’s embodied by all four of his sisters (Caroline, Emma, Kate, and Lizzy) being involved with the creation of his third Djo album, it’s reciprocated by long-time pals both on the road and in the studio (co-producer Adam Thein also plays keys on tour), and perpetuated by the ironic urban myth that Keery hails from Chicago (he was actually born and raised in Newburyport, Massachusetts, despite his "when I'm back in Chicago, I feel it" ode that has been streamed over 1.5 billion times).
Originally beloved for his endearing portrayal of Steve Harrington on Netflix's 'Stranger Things', Keery is now also celebrated as the musical mastermind behind 'End Of Beginning' - a public hoodwinking which fooled even cast-mate Millie Bobby Brown (a.k.a. Eleven), who recently admitted to only learning of Keery's double-life after "nine years of knowing this man" and "had no idea" she'd been listening to him all along. The real truth is that Keery contains multitudes - creating music since eighth grade, a DIY multi-instrumentalist with early project Cool Cool Cool, and originally cutting his teeth playing drums in bands with friends. In 2015, Keery switched to guitar in the Chicago-based Post Animal (he'd moved across the country to attend university and lived there for six years), and contributed to their 2018 album 'When I Think Of You In A Castle' before a burgeoning acting career forced his hand. Unable to tour, Keery worked on solo music and released 'Roddy' in 2019 - his first single under the moniker of Djo (pronounced "Joe") - which preceded the mysterious debut album, 'Twenty Twenty'.
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Last October, when I met Keery for the first time at New York's famed Electric Lady Studios, he was excited to hit play on new songs that he'd first started working on two years ago in September of 2022. I told Keery that I had been dreading this experience, ever since two nights prior when Jack Antonoff had informed me that being seated next to a journalist during an album playback is one of his worst nightmares. Anxious about my thoughts manifesting in real-time on my face and where to direct my gaze when pretending to be deep in thought, I listened while Keery shared thirteen songs that showcased a masterful evolution of unexpected instrumentation - acoustic, brass, and choir vocals. Keery played me an unfinished album out of order, still contemplating the final tracklist and working-title of 'The Crux' (a perfect epitomisation which I implored him to make official). As someone who tracks the passing of time with monthly playlists, I was dubious about the importance of sequencing, so when I received the finished album three months later and was impressed by the now perfect arc of the record, I texted Keery to congratulate him. It had already dawned on me in the studio, but it felt singular now: that this really seemed like the start of something special.
This past summer, during Charli xcx's headlining set at Laneway Festival in Auckland, I noticed an odd movement in the grass out of the corner of my eye, and turned just in time to witness Keery roly-poly down a steep hill (making it about three full rotations before his team looked over in alarm). This is the kind of frivolity that tends to happen when you are around Keery - who is a genuine enthusiast of everything from 'Lord Of The Rings' and 'Star Wars' trivia (I rolled my eyes when he insisted that Ben Quadinaros is his favourite podracer), to eating strawberries in abundance (this happened while making his new album), and pictures of mice costumed in formalwear (don't ask: I can't explain). You see, Keery loves to laugh, and perhaps the only thing he enjoys more, is making other people laugh. The aforementioned roly-poly incident mirrored a goofy moment in an antique book store during his Coup De Main cover-shoot, where while waiting in the dark for a shot to be set up, I turned to my left to find Keery in ghost-story-mode, re-enacting 'The Blair Witch Project' by harshly illuminating his face with a phone. Keery has theorised that he's regressing in age, but I have a different supposition. If the French call it joie de vivre, then I call this: Joe Keery just living his life. Because everything is romantic if you're having fun - and what is romance, if not a lust for life?
This year, Keery is concentrating on touring widely for the first time in his career, and it's been gratifying to witness Australasian festival crowds embrace him so whole-heartedly. It takes a brave person to begin a festival set with an unreleased song, but fans were already singing along word-for-word to 'Gap Tooth Smile' by the time he played his first international headline show at Sydney's Enmore Theatre in the middle of his Laneway run. Keery's new album felt self-contained when he played it to me for the first time with only three other people in the room, and all January in my car when I drove around listening at top volume - but with the release of 'The Crux' last month, Keery's journal of recent years is now available to all, and not just digitally. "I'm 32-years-old, but it's a humbling experience to feel like you have to kind of relearn how to do something," said Keery who is nervous about learning how to tour and perform live, but having witnessed his showmanship grow in real-time (I've seen him put on a cowboy hat and then gallop around on-stage, so it's easy to believe he went to theatre school), has been like watching an energetic puppy charge valiantly into the great unknown. Keery has put his whole heart into everything - from 'The Crux' album cover figurines that provided a game of 'Eye Spy' for fans during his Laneway sets, to the "Hit it Wes" ad-lib addressed to drummer Wesley Toledo in 'Back On You', and the minutiae detail of a bellhop mouse on the cover of his new album. Because in Djo-world, every little component is a labour of love.
Joe wears: Blazer and jeans from Grandma's Closet Costume Rentals, Past Lives Archive shirt, Gola shoes, Akila sunglasses.
In conversation, Keery is reticent to discuss love, but its imprint is everywhere. 'The Crux' follows up 2022’s whip-smart 'Decide', and is an emotional rollercoaster - the first two singles, 'Basic Being Basic' ("How’d it feel to take the light from my life?") and 'Delete Ya' ("I’m a boat that’s sinking guess who’s the sea"), an A-side/B-side soundtrack for the death of romantic illusion. Usually a private person, Keery openly runs the gamut from feeling unmoored in 'Link' ("I just graduated / Top of my class / Furthest from last / So why do I feel so bad?"), to fully supported in 'Back On You' ("Well I’ve got friends / Who never spin the truth / And they can trust in me"), and hopeful on 'Potion' ("I'll try for all of my life just to find someone who leaves on the light for me"). Aside from Keery himself, love is the other main character on 'The Crux', and Keery chooses to define himself by it time and time again - 'Charlie's Garden' chronicles a lackadaisical day with 'Stranger Things' cast-mate Charlie Heaton, Keery wrote 'Golden Line' for his parents ("My intention was to make you proud"), and the contemplative 'Crux' challenges Keery himself to "get back to your heart" and prioritise real connection. Some celebrities can only have fans and not friends, but that isn't Keery, whose life philosophy has more in common with The Beatles classic 'All You Need Is Love' than the superficial entitlement that usually accompanies wealth and fame. If that isn't clear enough, let me put it this way: when I asked Keery what his favourite lyrics on his new album are, he quoted his mother's pick ("Turns a scar to a seam" from 'Lonesome Is A State Of Mind').
So, what else makes a man?
On 'Egg', Keery is unflinchingly honest about the cost of letting fear dominate your decision-making: "My life in the cave / People go by I smile and wave / But deep down inside / There’s always that fear / That I’m not enough / I seem cavalier / But it’s all an act / I’m cold cause I’m weak / And deep down inside / There’s nothing unique." Keery is a self-described over-thinker, and having graduated from a decade of his adult life in The Upside Down, he finds himself now at a crossroads - on the cusp of the general public knowing to distinguish between Joe Keery and Steve Harrington ("God, you're a fool / You think these people really care for you? / You really think they will be there for you?" Keery maligned on his last album in 'Half Life'). The weight of expectation can be stifling for some ("Is that the child who’s afraid in you?" he also contemplates in 'Egg'), but Keery is endeavouring for a balance between his own ambition, positive manifestation, and trying his best to live in the present (and enjoy it). Taking back control of his life, 'The Crux' album cover depicts Keery dangling precariously out a third-floor hotel window, poised to move on from a transitionary limbo state - finally ready to remap his interior and shape a shiny new future. Keery is a fan of Apple TV's 'Severance', and I see the parallels in their work when creator/showrunner Dan Erickson describes the series as "about the challenge of being fully human in a world that often discourages you." Similarly, Keery posits in 'Golden Line' that: "Life can bring you down / The world can be so cruel / But I still trust in love." Both Erickson and Keery believe that love transcends all, and that's the kind of world that I want to grow old in.
But if you really want to know what someone is like, question their colleagues - and Keery's closest associates vouch for him with absolute certainty. Co-producer Thein says: "He’s a great collaborator and a great friend and cares a lot about the people in his life and is super generous with his time and energy. Joe has an absolutely unstoppable creativity that is a fun challenge to try and keep up with. He’s extremely inspiring to work with and pushes me to find new approaches and develop new skills on every session." Creative partner, and Post Animal bandmate, Jake Hirshland adds: "There is a lot to admire about Joe’s songwriting, musicianship, producing brain, etc. But I think the thing I admire most is the way Joe knows how to make the rules work for him. He understands songs very well, and he’s great at crafting songs that seem like they’ve been around forever. But it’s this same understanding of the fundamentals that allows him to break the rules in a really intentional and satisfying way, and he seems to always have an instinct for the right time to do that." Conclusively, 'The Crux' is a testament to this - it's a novel concept, an album you actually want to listen to from beginning to end.
Joe wears: Carter Young jacket, Shirt/tie/pants from Grandma's Closet Costume Rentals, London Sock Co. socks, Gola shoes, Past Lives Archive ring.
"This is my new background," Keery proudly beams, while holding up his phone to show me an adorable photo of his three-year-old niece. "I've three really cute nieces, so it's very fun to hang with them. They're the best. They're so cute." Today, we are seated opposite each other at an alfresco style dining table, and fresh from an outdoor swim in Auckland's harbour, Keery is eating eggs before a flight to Brisbane. He absent-mindedly plays with his hair, and I watch in amusement as Keery's hair gets progressively taller and taller over the course of the next hour - during which the word 'thankful' comes up a lot. He recognises it is a privilege to be able to pursue multiple creative careers: "It's really not lost on me that this entire thing could also go away at any point. Life is short. There are small bumps in the road, but you've really got to be thankful. Also, people dedicate a lot of time to this. These are just songs that I've written." Self-awareness is a double-edged sword though, and Keery is unsure if he believes in karmic justice. His inner monologue wonders if extraordinary success can be secured without exacting a cost from others ("Can one be great? Can one be kind? When history shows they’re not intertwined / So what will you choose, your heart or your pride?" ponders Keery on his new album), but he credits his parents for instilling good manners and morality in him ("You must do what’s right / I always do what’s right / Black and white / I think I see a different side / Tow the line," he ruminates in 'Link'). Keery's wide-eyed wonder at his good fortune and success never feels performative because for him, gratitude and joy are synonymous, and kindness is a love language unto itself.
"My future's not what I thought / I thought it wrong," mulls Keery in 'The Crux' opening-track, 'Lonesome Is A State Of Mind'. We were at a chic piano bar in Manhattan last year when I asked him what he originally thought his future would be, and Keery replied, "I don't know what exactly, but definitely not this, I just think it speaks to the unexpected nature of the unexpectedness of life." Seven months later, I think back to when Keery had handed me an elaborate cityscape he had drawn - after telling me earlier in the day, that as a child, he had wanted to be a cartoonist. It's only recently, that I connected the dots, but I wasn't surprised to learn that Keery's father is an architect. Because after all, you are what you love, and maybe that's the true crux of everything - that different futures can beckon when you've been living out of a suitcase for the past four years, but all roads lead home eventually.
CDM: On your debut Djo album, 'Twenty Twenty', in 'Personal Lies' you opened the song saying: "Lately I feel like I've been losing my mind." Your sophomore album 'Decide' opened with 'Runner' and the lyrics: "Love and hate decide." This new album opens with: "Is it all the same / That I’m not giving up." Are each of those album's opening statements reflective of how you were feeling during each period of your life making them?
JOE: That's a very good question. Mostly yes, but I don't think any of those songs were necessarily intended to be written as the first track. The ordering happens later. But I think, generally yes - that is a good middle 20s, late 20s, early 30s.
CDM: In comparison, the closing lyrics of each album are "God bless me" in 'Mutual Future (Repeat)', and "we all wanna be someone at the end of the day" in 'Slither', and "get back to your heart" in 'Crux'. Do any of those feel like they were prophetic?
JOE: I think that those are all pretty much in line with what was maybe going on in my life at the time.
CDM: You know yourself! Good job.
JOE: Yeah! <laughs>
CDM: Do you find yourself dwelling more in the past, present, or the future?
JOE: Probably the least in the present, but that's the thing I'd like to try to fix the most and focus on the most. I definitely go to the past. I definitely go to the future too, very frequently. Sometimes it's hard not to - if you're a problem solver, I feel like you're always thinking about the future. And if you sometimes feel not so self-assured, I think it's very easy to look to the past and be like, 'Ahhh was this the right call? Was this the right move?' But I do think the best and when I am at my most happiest, it's when I'm living in the present, just enjoying where I am - like right now, jumping in the water and hanging out with friends, and enjoying this last day here in New Zealand.
CDM: Are you the kind of person who likes routine? Or do you thrive in chaos?
JOE: I'm really 50/50. When we were making this album, I'd be in New York for maybe a week or two weeks. Great routine: get up, have a little run, take a walk to the studio, get breakfast, work on songs and stuff. I really did love being in that routine, and in Atlanta as well. But because of the nature of what's going on in my life, right now, the routine will only really last for probably a couple weeks at most. I think I am a creature of habit, but just due to the scenario that I'm in, I have learned to kind of anticipate and appreciate change happening pretty frequently.
CDM: Describe the last time you felt most at peace...
JOE: Probably swimming just a second ago. There was a massive jellyfish that we had to jump over. So that wasn't so peaceful, but then just floating in the water - me and my pal Javi [Reyes], who plays guitar in the band, we were sitting on the step at that Karanga pool and I really do like that. That's nice. Another time that I was at peace, probably over the holidays, was hanging with my sisters and with my parents and my little nieces. I've three really cute nieces, so it's very fun to hang with them, and I'll show you a picture. They're the best. They're so cute. This is my new background. Her name is Maeve. She had hurt her fingers.
CDM: Have you watched 'Severance'?
JOE: I have watched. I just watched the newest two episodes / I watched three total on the plane.
CDM: Is Joe Keery your innie and Djo your outie? Or is Djo your innie and Joe Keery your outie?
JOE: Oh whoah, that's so fun. The promo for the second album is definitely super influenced by 'Severance'.
CDM: Really?
JOE: Yeah, you can tell! There's an office scene that's going on, and I was like: 'Yeah, that's kind of fun.' That totally had a big influence on me. I just think that Ben Stiller is a genius, and I think that show is just gorgeous, shot really well, captivating--
CDM: I honestly think it's the best TV.
JOE: I think it's the best TV!
CDM: This season is crazy. Episode four is insane.
JOE: Maybe I'll download this for my flight to Brisbane.
CDM: You're gonna freak out. It's so good.
JOE: To answer your question: probably me-regular is my outie and then music-Djo is my innie. I guess... I think... Is that what you expected me to say?
CDM: I honestly didn't know which way you would go - but if you look at it theoretically, an innie represents your inner child. So I guess that does make sense to me because I feel like Djo is you being free to really express yourself - especially with this new album.
JOE: Yeah, it's been kind of interesting. We're doing these shows now, the album's coming out, and I've taken the wig off and am leaving that in the past. I definitely am sort of now realising, 'Oh, that was kind of a convenient crutch to lean on, to kind of separate myself, and allowed me to lean into this persona.' It was kind of nice. And now that I don't have that anymore, it is a rediscovery. I feel a little bit more nervous than ever and... I'm 32 years old, but it's a humbling experience to feel like you have to kind of relearn how to do something.
CDM: It's hard being vulnerable. And it's scary.
JOE: Yeah, it is. And you want to make everyone proud - all the people who have believed in you and put time and effort in on your behalf. You just want to make everybody proud. But I'm also feeling really excited, like the process of doing Laneway so far, even though we've only done one show, has been a great experience so far, so I'm feeling pretty lucky to have the opportunity to do it.
CDM: "Joe Keery" contains so many multitudes. What was it like filming 'Pavements' where you played yourself playing Stephen Malkmus?
JOE: That was crazy. That was very, very crazy because my friend Hayley from Chicago is a massive Pavement fan. That's how I knew about Pavement originally. And also Alex [Ross Perry]'s idea of the movie was so unique - I almost didn't really even understand the concept of the movie until we got there.
CDM: It's very confusing!
JOE: It's very confusing. So again, just kind of getting thrown in the deep end a little bit. But it was very short - I think 10 days for me, and it was in the middle of New York summer, but again, it was an opportunity to work with some people who are personal heroes to me. Like Jason Schwartzman - my god, working with him!
CDM: He's the best.
JOE: He's THE BEST! He is amazing. And also, Tim Heidecker too, is somebody who a lot of people in my generation look up to as a comedy legend, and then all the young cast too. It was just really fun. So yeah, one day I'll check it out. I think Alex said the screening of that movie will coincide with the shows that we're doing in Brooklyn, which is cool.
Joe wears: Tom Ford jacket, sweater, pants, belt, and boots.
CDM: Difficult goodbyes were a big theme on the last album, and your songwriting is very internal and reflective. Has it been cathartic for you, especially with the writing and recording of 'The Crux', to help you move on from the past so you can feel freer in the present?
JOE: Yeah, definitely. That's kind of my draw to songwriting - the catharsis of working through something that's going on in your life. And yeah, this record in particular felt like a real alleviating process, kind of going through these things.
CDM: Like a weight lifted off your shoulders?
JOE: Yeah. It's nice to have a little personal journal or something like that, but it's just a song.
CDM: You're in motion driving in 'Lonesome Is A State Of Mind' and 'Delete Ya' - is that a comforting feeling for you?
JOE: Well, it was comforting making those songs. It was really nice to get that out. Releasing it now is kind of maybe a different thing because you start to realise, 'Oh, this journal that I used is now going to be released into the world.' But this time, more than ever, I'm trying to get out of any mindset of trying to edit it. I'm just trying to put it out, and that's it.
CDM: "Twenty-nine and misaligned," you say in 'Lonesome Is A State Of Mind'. How does it feel for you to look back on that song now three years later?
JOE: It certainly doesn't feel like three years later. It feels good. That's a good first song because it sets the stage in my mind. I love to think about Side A and Side B. That feels like a really good Side A starter for me - just kind of sets the table and tells a little bit of a story, and is a good jumping-off point. I wonder if we're gonna play that song live. I don't know... I don't know how we're gonna do it. We've been talking about how we would play some of these... I think some of the 'Decide' songs are honestly a little harder than some of the new ones.
CDM: In 'Basic Being Basic' you say: "I don’t want your money / I don’t care for fame / I don’t wanna live a life where that’s my big exchange." What do you want to be remembered by your friends for?
JOE: Just somebody who's on their side, and somebody who will stick their neck out for you, or if you have a flat tyre, someone who will come and pick you up and help you out. Or if you need anything. Those little gestures, I feel, go far.
CDM: Someone asked me recently: 'How do you know who your real friends are?' I told them that I think it's convenience. If you remove convenience from a friendship - convenience of location, convenience of communication, the conveniences they add to your life or that you add to their life - and it still feels good/healthy and thrives, then that's how you know. Joe, how do you know who your real friends are?
JOE: Wow, that's such a good answer. Convenience... I don't know exactly, but something that is so important to me is having a good laugh and a good sense of humour with friends. I don't know if that's how you know who your real friends are, but that is something I really do value in a lot of my friendships, and just any relationship really, like relationships with my family. It's important because life is not so serious and it's fun to just have a nice time living it.
CDM: The lyric, "It’s like my capacity to love and give has changed," really stands out. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. Did it ever feel daunting being that vulnerable on the new album's first single?
JOE: Yeah, for sure, there was a fair amount of... like I said, you write and record the music, but then you think, 'Oh, this is gonna be released to the world.' My sister gave me really good advice that that's the point. Making art is putting your perspective and your spin on something, and to be as honest as you possibly can, and to edit and take away from that would be doing a disservice to the end result. That's how I felt when I wrote that song, and it's a biting song, but it also plays a specific part in the whole album for me. I'm not a really angry person or a really mad person, but that is a side of me too, and I feel like it's important to show all sides of yourself. And like I said, it plays a part in the whole journey of this album, so without it, it maybe wouldn't have the same impact. It's uncomfortable to open yourself up that way, but also, I guess that's kind of the point.
CDM: When did you write 'Link'? Is there a specific period of time in your life it's about?
JOE: I wrote the guitar riffle, just the chords a long time ago, maybe 2019. It was just something I'd play, and I like the symbolism of breaking free of something and of somebody urging you on to break free of something. To me, that's an evocative image, and also a homage to that style of music, and to 'Youth In Revolt' sort of. I can't wait to play that song live. I feel like 15-year-old me would have really been excited about that song, and that brings me a little bit of joy. Sam [Jordan], who's in the band, we've known each other since we were six months old. We met at a public swimming pool. Our dads were in a baby swim class together, and so we--
CDM: So much of your life revolves around swimming pools.
JOE: That's funny, yeah. Sam and I grew up playing music together and writing songs together. And it feels like a song that maybe me and Sam would have come across when we were 14 and smoking weed in the basement and being like, 'Whoah! <emphasises> What is this?!' So I like it a lot for that reason.
CDM: I always imagine Link from Zelda on a quest when I'm listening to that song.
JOE: That's great!
CDM: When you played me 'Potion' at Electric Lady back in October, you described the song as "like a favourite pair of jeans." If 'Potion' is the jeans, what other songs are part of 'The Crux' outfit?
JOE: That's funny. 'Link' is like your favourite little baseball cap. 'Delete Ya' is like a pocket watch on a chain. I think 'Fly' is a cape... this outfit is insane.
CDM: I can't wait to see you wear this outfit on tour.
JOE: <laughs> Yeah, and 'Gap Tooth Smile' is a pair of nice, freshly changed-out elastic braces.
CDM: "I'll try for all of my life just to find someone who leaves on the light for me," is one of my favourite lyrics on the album - it's just such a pure sentiment. Is that familiarity what real love feels like to you?
JOE: Yeah, I think so - somebody who you know beyond words is on your team and on your side, and vice versa. I think everybody's looking for deep mutual understanding. And there's a point in every relationship where you get to a fracture or some sort of impasse, and sometimes you can make it beyond it and sometimes you can't, but usually after something like that, there's this shared history thing that happens. And I do think everybody really wants that. Everybody wants somebody that's their biggest cheerleader and will stick their neck out for you.
CDM: Are you familiar with love languages?
JOE: Yeah.
CDM: Leaving a light on, metaphorically or literally, feels like an act of service. Is that your love language?
JOE: You mean the way I give? Or the way that I receive?
CDM: Both.
JOE: Acts of service is important, honestly. For sure, definitely - my parents will do that for each other. So I think there's a part of seeing that, as my parents are still together--
CDM: They were your blueprint while growing up.
JOE: Exactly, and then probably, words of affirmation is also pretty important to me.
Joe wears: Suit from Grandma's Closet Costume Rentals, Past Lives Archive shirt and watch, Grenson shoes.
CDM: When you interviewed Jay Watson for us back in 2017, you told him that you were "no good at producing music, but it's definitely a cool skill to have, I imagine." Do you feel more comfortable with a producer's hat on now than you did 7 years ago?
JOE: Yeah, I think I do, at least with my own stuff. I do feel pretty good about just being decisive. There are people who are going to know, technically, what is a better thing to do than me, that's for sure, but it's really just following your gut.
CDM: It's also subjective. I'm a huge Mk.gee fan and was arguing with some musicians recently who don't think he's good at producing. It's all a matter of opinion.
JOE: I don't know Mk.gee, but I'm a big fan of his. I think he's amazing.
CDM: I saw him live in December and it was transformative.
JOE: Yeah, he's fantastic. He's very, very talented. And he's doing something that's really unique, and I'm sure it's coming from a place of him just experimenting on his own--
CDM: Being creative
JOE: That's what it is. Exactly. He's making his own sound based on what he thinks sounds good.
CDM: I asked your co-producer Adam Thein what his first impression of you was and he said: "I met Joe in 2015 in Chicago at a show where both our bands opened for The Walters. I didn’t know much about Joe but I remember thinking Post Animal was great and that he was a good drummer when they were playing their set. Flash-forward nearly a decade later now and I’ve gotten to know Joe well - he’s a great collaborator and a great friend and cares a lot about the people in his life and is super generous with his time and energy."
JOE: That's nice.
CDM: What was your very first impression of Adam the first time you met and how does that compare to your opinion of him now?
JOE: Adam's a couple years older than me, so I think in your early 20s, that means a little bit more - so at the time, he was in this band called Dolores with Ted [Mathews] and Javi, who are both members of our touring group now (and our friend Willie [Christianson] as well, who played in the 2019 shows). And they were the talk of the town in terms of upcoming bands. They were insanely good. Insanely, insanely good because they're all just really great players, and their recorded music was really good too, so we looked up to this group. I knew Adam as the guy responsible for the recording of all this stuff, so I was like, 'Oh shit, this guy knows what he's doing.' And then-- <violently coughs>
CDM: Please don't die. That would not be very peaceful.
JOE: No, that would not be very peaceful. And then I reached out to him, kind of on a lark because I needed somebody to help me mix this thing that I put together and recorded, and it just sort of worked out. I think we're both really sensitive people, and I think we have a really deep and personal connection to each other because of what we've been through, and he's one of my closest friends. I still look up to him so much because of, well, obviously, because of his skill. And because of his work ethic. He will outwork anyone, hands down. But also his kindness - he's just a very kind person to everybody in his life, and a very, very gracious guy. So yeah, I feel lucky to have come across him. And it's not lost on me that this project that I started, would not be the same if it wasn't for him - his imprint on it is massive in my mind.
CDM: Yay, Adam! We love Adam.
JOE: We love Adam.
CDM: Do you want to know my first impression of you?
JOE: Sure.
CDM: There was a moment at Electric Lady when you stopped me in the hallway to say some kind words about [the assistant engineer] Austin [Christy], and he couldn't hear you so it wasn't even for his benefit, it just felt like you really wanted me to know that he's important to you. Most busy people never say thank you, not to deliberately hurt anyone, but they're just focused on themselves and not thinking about anyone else. In my whole career, you're maybe the first person I've ever interviewed who is verbally generous to people that you work with. You said that you want to make everyone proud... you already have! And I know this because I've been asking everyone around you. They all genuinely love you. I've written about a lot of albums and sometimes the producer won't even want to comment at all. Adam is so proud of you.
JOE: That's very nice of you to say. I feel the same way. I feel really lucky to be surrounded by these people. I guess it's also really not lost on me that this entire thing could also go away at any point too. Life is short. There are small bumps in the road, but you've really got to be thankful. Also, people dedicate a lot of time to this. These are just songs that I've written, and the fact that [my manager] Nick [Stern] and [my publicist] Meg [Helsel], they're dedicating their time and energy too, and also people buying tickets to the show. We were just selling tickets to the shows, and people are buying tickets, so it's not lost on me that that's very crazy and unique. So every once in a while, it feels good to me to step back and be like, 'Okay, wow, that's very cool.' And to be appreciative and thank everyone - because it's also my parents too. My parents were always saying: good manners / gotta be thankful.
CDM: It's rare to see people do the right thing when no one is looking, so I'm impressed.
JOE: Thank you.
CDM: What do you value most about your creative partnership with Adam?
JOE: Hmmm, well, there's a lot to be thankful for there. But recently, coming to the end of this record, our studio relationship / writing and recording relationship feels at its highest level right now, just because we are the most honest with each other about what we like, what we don't like, what we think would work, and really open to trying new ideas and not shutting things down. The open and honest communication about things is the thing that I value most of all because it's tough to be so open. Being in a band sometimes, it can be difficult to speak your mind about something, but to have a close enough relationship where you can say, 'I really don't like that, I don't like that part'--
CDM: You have to be honest.
JOE: You really have to be honest. It's so hard. Even with your friends and even with your family, it can be very difficult to do that. And so when you find someone that you can do that with, it's really worth keeping them around, and also just being like, 'Okay, wow, this is a really special thing, that we have gotten to this level with each other, so let's keep this up.'
CDM: Have you, Adam, and Jake Hirshland recorded any other +Dungeon songs?
JOE: Yeah! Me and Jake, we have a fun song that we did at Electric Lady one day that's kind of a weird, fun song that we didn't finish, but would be fun to put out. There's a lot of music. I'm not sure exactly when we're gonna finish it, but I'd really love to do something else with all the extra music because it feels like this time around, there was a lot of extra music. Usually it's like, 'Fuck, we need one more song.'
CDM: In New York, I remember you saying you wrote around 50 to 60 songs for this new album?
JOE: Yeah, at least 60 ideas, probably 40 songs, and then maybe 30 done ones, or something like that. But even those little kernels... I was going in without Adam, just because I was free and he was not free, and so there's a lot of ideas that I had-- Is that my phone? I'm sorry.
CDM: So rude! I'm judging you right now.
JOE: That's fair. That's very rude.
CDM: "I interviewed Joe Keery and he wasn't even paying attention. He's terrible and I hate him."
JOE: "He was eating eggs and looking at his phone." Anyways, I would like to find some time to flesh them out and do something else with them. That still is my favourite part - the recording stuff.
CDM: You played me two songs at Electric Lady, 'Mr. Mountebak' and 'It's Over', that didn't make the album. Why did you replace those two songs with 'Link'?
JOE: Just for the flow of the album. The first one, just because the style of the song felt like it just took us a little far one way that didn't really make sense, and then the other one, just for the pacing of the album. Did I play 'Who You Are'? That was another one, and also 'Carry The Name' was another one, that again-- I'm a sucker for writing mid-tempo songs and I feel like it just lagged a little bit too much. And then there were other songs that I felt kind of created a through line that was just a little bit stronger.
CDM: I've already told you: the album is a perfect arc from beginning to end, how it is now.
JOE: I think it happened the way that it should have happened.
Joe wears: Past Lives Archive sweatshirt and button down, Jeans from Grandma's Closet Costume Rentals, PONY shoes, Rolex watch.
CDM: Congrats, I think that 'Gap Tooth Smile' is the only song I've ever heard to utilise the words "roly poly" in the lyrics.
JOE: I think so too. That was, again, almost edited out. That was a song that was done at the studio, obviously, and I had the chords for the chorus. I was like, 'Oh, this is really fun, this whole thing.' And then we tracked it: guitar, bass, drums. Just did the core thing and then added the lead guitar, and then added the lead synth, and then was like, 'What are the lyrics gonna be for this?' We had one more day, and then it was just like... <whistles sharply> Did the whole lyrics in maybe an hour. Sometimes that's how it happens. It happened with 'Basic [Being Basic'] - sometimes you do it all in one thing, and then that's what it's gonna be, and it's better not to edit it.
CDM: I was very stressed for you last night when I turned around and saw you start to roly-poly down the hill.
JOE: I was ready to go all the way.
CDM: Please no.
JOE: I was ready to go all the way down that hill, but I had white pants on, and this guy who was standing next to me said, 'Hey man, you're gonna ruin your white pants.' I said, 'Thank you.'
CDM: "Anything’s cool if it’s done with heart," you say in 'Gap Tooth Smile', which reminds me of something Maya Hawke once told us: "I feel like people think they gain status by placing themselves above other people. Someone who walks out of a movie theatre saying 'oh my god that movie was incredible, what a cluster f!ck' is someone I’m way more excited to talk to than someone who walked out early." It's so weird to me that apathy has been normalised as cool. Do you think social media has amplified that?
JOE: Yeah! I think so. Yeah, apathy. Not to go back to 'Pavements', but that whole slacker generation, like, 'Ah, we don't want to try, we don't want to do anything...' You don't want to be seen as trying too hard. I think everybody is a little worried that they're going to be looked at as trying too hard. But it's important to care. You've got to care and you've got to dig into stuff. I agree with Maya, though. I think that's me too.
CDM: I know it's not what you mean, but whenever you say "blue and gold" in 'Delete Ya', it always makes me think of the blue/gold dress debate.
JOE: <laughs> That's funny. Blue & Gold is a bar in New York. It's funny: I talk about Charlie [Heaton] a fair amount on this album and that's a place that I would go with him.
CDM: How does Charlie feel about his shout-outs in both 'Delete Ya' and 'Charlie's Garden'?
JOE: I don't know how he feels about it, but for me... maybe I'm obsessed with him. 'Charlie's Garden' is a song that is a snapshot of my life while we were working on the show ['Stranger Things'], and it's kind of top of mind. I just love that guy. He's such a dear, good friend of mine, and a truly good person. He's the type of guy who will do a favour for you. He's a real good friend, and it's just been crazy to know him on this journey that we've been on. And it's not really fair that I haven't given Natalia [Dyer] a shout-out - we're just as close. But Charlie weeded his way right into my mind and I just had to sing about him.
CDM: Does Charlie have an actual garden?
JOE: Yeah! It's his backyard. He has a beautiful backyard that he turned into this amazing thing. He's always working on it and it's just him. Being in this purgatory place down there, kind of waiting to get called in for work, he's doing all these chores and keeping himself busy. He lives in Atlanta because he's also on 'Stranger Things' too. So he lives in New York, and then we both also live in Atlanta as well. He's my neighbour and his dog is Penny. It's fun.
CDM: In 'Egg' you ask: "Can one be great? Can one be kind?" Have you found an answer yet?
JOE: Oh man, no, I don't think so. My dad has a deep sense of what the common good is, and morality, and sometimes I do feel like people will do anything to get ahead. Also, I do wonder if you can be a good person and still not get what you want, but I don't really know. I guess that's why I posed the question. I don't really have the answer, but I'd like to believe that you can.
CDM: How did your sisters react when they first heard 'Back On You'?
JOE: They're part of the gang choir, so we had recorded the choruses, and that was the first song that was recorded for this album. It was song one. I pretty much knew that that was gonna make it. We had a big link of all the songs, and that one wasn't on it because it wasn't done, and I didn't want them to hear it. And then just after Christmas, actually, I sent it to all my sisters, and it was good - you know, really personal. Had a nice, teary phone call with my sisters, and we had actually eaten this... definitely TMI... I don't know how I heard of these, but I get on these health kicks, and I'll bite, what can I say? So I got these fermented plums, and me and Kate and Emma, we ate these plums, and they just clean you out. So we ate these plums, and they were driving back to New York the next day, and all of our stomachs... they were stopping and pulling over. And that was the day I sent them this song. So they listened to it in the car and we had a nice chat. It's emotional. It's me saying exactly how I feel about my sisters. And again, it's kind of like, 'Well, there you go!' But it also feels really good. When we were recording, I was always chasing lyrics that would instantly unlock something and make me feel just right on the edge of... I could tell that what I was saying was very true, so I was really chasing that. And still now, even when we rehearse that song, or I'm listening to it every once in a while, it is very true to me. So if I get hit by a bus tomorrow and die, it will be nice to know that I put something out in the world that is very, very true to how I feel.
CDM: Emma and Kate contribute backing vocals to six songs on the album - was it important to you to have them be a through line in the fabric of the album?
JOE: It was really an idea Adam kind of had. We were inspired by Dan Nigro, it would have been last spring when Chappell [Roan] was kind of popping off, and we were inspired by the gang vocals that she had on the record - 'Oh, that'd be a cool thing.' Adam thought we should maybe give this a shot because in terms of backing vocals, it was certainly always me. It wasn't my intention to have them come, but they were in town, and they were like, 'Yeah.' And it really mirrored our relationship when we were little kids - we would make all these videos, and it was me, and Kate, Emma, and Lizzie, and we'd go into the woods and make a movie, or this or that. Kate and Emma live in New York, so they came to the studio. And it was me, and Kate, and Emma in Austin - beautiful Austin. And Adam. I think 'Lonesome [Is A State Of Mind'] was the first song we did it on, and we were like, 'Wow, this really provides dimension for a lot of this and makes the scale just a little bit bigger too,' which is something I was interested in. So it just sounded so good that we just kept putting it on all these different songs. And I'm looking forward to it [being out]. I hope it also is gonna translate, in a nice way, live.
CDM: They were so cute on Fallon when you performed 'Basic Being Basic' together live.
JOE: Yeah, they were great on Fallon!! I hope they'll come and maybe do some of the shows in Brooklyn. They're cool. They're great and stylish. And Lizzie is also on 'Back On You'. She's stomping and clapping. Like I said, that was the first song I recorded, so that was in November of 2022, so she was there that day. And then Caroline, my other sister, is also on that song too. She's in the outro. So it's fun. I've got all my sisters on the song! It's great.
CDM: In 'End Of Beginning' you ask yourself, "Remember twenty-four?" - which was the age you were when 'Stranger Things' was released. There's a theory that people who find fame stay mentally stuck at the age they first entered the public eye. Do you agree or disagree with that?
JOE: Yeah, I've heard this. Well, that doesn't make sense because I'm pretty much at the mental development of a 13-year-old.
CDM: You've regressed?
JOE: I've regressed. <laughs> Yeah, I'm going backwards. Something I love about my dad is that he's very young at heart and he's just a very positive guy. He's famous in my eyes, he's not famous in everyone else's eyes, but I don't know if that's entirely true. If you're surrounded by a bunch of people who enable you the second that you get some sort of notoriety or fame, I could imagine that would happen, but the people around me in my life don't necessarily treat me that way. But yeah, that being said, I'm still regressing. I'll be probably 12 next year, and then 11 the year after that.
CDM: All right, see you when you're zero years old.
JOE: Exactly.
CDM: "Get back to your heart," on 'Crux' is, again, such a pure sentiment. Do you agree or disagree that home is where your heart is?
JOE: Yes! I agree!! I do agree. That was an amazing day. I worked on a Post Animal record that's coming out this year. We all did it and made a big album cover-- this album cover is amazing. So we all went to New York, we did this album shoot, and then I had these extra songs - and that was one of the songs, 'Crux'. The guys came in after we had done the album shoot: Javi is playing guitar, Matt [Williams]'s playing guitar, Dalton [Allison]'s playing bass, and they're all singing the background vocals. Again, the components of the song are what the song is about - honouring your friends and your family, and where you've come from, and just being able to give and receive love symbiotically.
CDM: Everything is so digital and synthetic nowadays, it's nice to think of art as connection in the form of a human leaving something for another human to discover. The sentiment of "get back to your heart" kind of reminds me of that. What is the hardest part of maintaining connection with other people?
JOE: Obviously, distance. It's difficult in your life-- people come and people go, but I think it's about being really open and being a good listener and making the time. We live in a really busy time, so making time to call this buddy of mine from back then. Putting yourself out there really has been a... My pal, Jake, who you know, he's really been an amazing example for me of that. He's the type of guy who is a lover of life, and will take trips with friends, and connect with people.
CDM: Having previously left Post Animal so that your fame didn't hinder the band, what does it mean to you being able to bring them on Djo tour this year for support?
JOE: I had big-time FOMO that I never got to tour with them, so this is just dream fulfilment for me. I don't necessarily know if we need seven people in this band, but we do need seven people in this band because it's fun to have all the friends, and also the serendipity of working on the album with the Post Animal guys, and that's like a 10-year reunion for that album, 'When I Think Of You In A Castle', and the process was very similar. We went away and recorded that album in an isolated thing, so to have that kind of coincide also with this new album, and have all of us go on tour together... these sorts of things don't happen very often in your life. A chance to do this on your own, let alone with all your really good friends, it just feels really meant to be and really great to lean into. And my goal is to just enjoy myself. Obviously, I want the shows to be amazing and I don't want to let anyone down; I want the shows to be great, but it's also selfishly, really just fun for me to be able to have this experience with all these people who are really close to me.
CDM: About your album shoot at the Paramount lot, Jake told me: "At multiple moments I remember looking at Joe and saying to myself, 'YOU and ME are doing THIS?!' I actually think that was said out loud a couple of times. Very excited about how everything turned out!" What was it like for you, working on the visuals for the new album with Jake and Neil Krug?
JOE: Fabulous. Obviously, it's a maximalist kind of complex and loaded image, but it was a really fun and new challenge because it's very different from the styles that we had worked in before, and the resources had grown a fair amount. Neil, with the experience and the eye that he has and the style that he brought to the project, mixed with the history of me and Jake - me and Jake have a real shared sense of what we think is cool, so being able to trust in him as a collaborator really put me at ease. What we tried to do is just something that was really real, and something that was kind of absurd and had little bits of all the songs - like the woman with the rain cloud walking away is a shout-out to 'Potion', and there's a little 'Golden Line' subway thing, and a 'Back On You' license plate. Just trying to get all these little things and keep people interested. When I was a kid, I remember looking at albums - my parents had a record collection and we didn't even have a record player, but I would take these albums out and be like, 'Wow, this is cool, look at the album art!' Like, the big album art. And so that's what I really wanted to do. The goal was to make a classic record in sonics and also in the visual aesthetic of the thing, and trying to take these things that I was really interested in as a kid and try to do it for now. I feel really happy with the way it turned out. And take any one person out of the process, and it wouldn't have been the same.
CDM: What would be the plot of a play written about 'The Crux' album art characters?
JOE: Oh man, it would be almost like a 'Slackers' type of movie where it just follows one person and it would be based around this hotel. So it'd be all these different people coming and going from this place and having all these different conundrums. And it would maybe blur styles and go from a little bit of a suspense thing to totally slapstick. That would be my dream. It would be kind of like this mish-mosh of all these different things that you would leave being like, 'That was a big weird.' Kind of like Monty Python meets Robert Altman meets 'Rear Window'.
CDM: Are you still wanting to return to theatre one day?
JOE: Yeah, would love to do that. I'm sure it would be just as terrifying as doing these live shows.
CDM: And lastly... in the past, you've referred to Djo as your side-project and acting as your main job. Do you still feel that way?
JOE: I guess it's changing a little bit now because my life has also changed a lot. My main job was basically 'Stranger Things' and that's over now. So it's like a new beginning for me, and we're taking it day by day and appreciating the opportunities, and seeing what happens next. It's sort of impossible to predict, and I'm determined to live in the present.
CDM: Next time I see you, you're gonna be so present, like--
JOE: "I am right here."
This interview has been edited and condensed for clarity.
Coup De Main has collaborated with Joe Keery on limited-edition Djo zines and a sticker sheet - click here to order now!
Photos by: Anthony Pham | Styling by: Amber Simiriglia | Grooming by: Jessica Ortiz
Polaroids by: Coup De Main | Location: Argosy Book Store
Djo's new album 'The Crux' is out now.
Listen to 'Potion' below...
