Interview: Gracie Abrams - healing in plain sight.
In Studio Ghibli's 2004 animated fantasy film, 'Howl's Moving Castle', the titular wizard strikes a bargain with a fallen star he's caught; entering into an unhealthy contract with a fire demon after bartering his heart in exchange for unlimited magical powers. To the rescue, comes humble milliner Sophie Hatter, a plucky heroine at the centre of a complex plot that explores how to grow up if you're already an adult. And in due course, with great compassion and empathy, Sophie overcomes her fears of mediocrity - also helping Howl to confront his avoidance behaviours head-on and make peace with his flaws and stunted emotional development. "A heart's a heavy burden," Sophie sagely says at a critical point in the film, and listening to the musical diary of Los Angeles-based singer/songwriter, Gracie Abrams, feels to be of similarly all-important high stakes.
Like a time capsule in song-form, Abrams tenderly presents hard truths such as: Your inner monologue can be a double-edged sword that defies all reason and logic, attempting to out-run your problems will only weigh you further down, and that absence makes the heart grow fonder. These are things that Abrams knows all too well to be true, having detailed her innermost emotional experiences in minutiae throughout a steady stream of releases, from her 2019 debut single 'Mean It', to 2020's earnest 'Minor' EP, and most recently, last year's poignant 'This Is What It Feels Like' project. "It was a super cathartic writing experience," confides Abrams of her supercut character study in metamorphosis. Weaving an autumnal tapestry of life-lessons, Abrams threads thorny feelings ("Count all the people who hate me," she jests in acoustic closer, 'Alright'), alongside open letters that can never be unsent, and the purgatory of feeling unmoored and out to sea inside one's own head.
Click here to order our limited-edition CDM x Gracie Abrams zine (i.e. a mini-magazine featuring photos + quotes from this cover-story).
You see, affairs of the heart are complicated. They’re non-linear, can scar deeply, and be terribly messy. Haunted by unwelcome questions (Why can't you just read my mind? Is it love, or are my feelings just reactionary? How do you know if love is worth it?), cracks can form in anything once thought to be unbreakable, and over-thinkers will be familiar with the crushing anxiety that accompanies being unable to freely communicate to a loved one what's on your mind. But still, we persevere, indulging ourselves in rose-tinted daydreams and the wishful thinking perpetuated by romantic comedies that love is just a matter of luck.
But Abrams (whom Olivia Rodrigo has credited as the songwriting inspiration for 'Drivers License', so you can be confident in her expert opinion on all matters of heartbreak, FYI), she sees things differently, embracing unapologetically loud main-character-energy, and choosing to believe that love is more an action than a feeling. Following the release of 'This Is What It Feels Like' back in November, and enveloped in a cozy pink hoodie whilst sat on her bedroom floor, Abrams explained to me over Zoom: "I've learned that every day it's like you are choosing that person, and the choice to be together, and the choice to be in a contest of generosity with each other. I think that's what I admire about healthy relationships in general, because it's so hard, people change every single day all the time, especially when you're in these developmental stages." Deciding to love another is akin to granting them the potential to hurt you beyond your own control (or even understanding), and there are no shortcuts or quick fixes for when you find yourselves no longer on the same page.
Writing with the emotional precision of a hot knife slicing through butter ("Bet you wish you never even met me," cuts particularly deep in the acoustic number, 'Rockland'), 22-year-old Abrams is equally as frank in conversation, detailing of the deceptively sparkly sounding 'The Bottom' that "to feel like you're failing someone who you love so much is a really dark feeling." Knowledge doesn't always equate to power, and being self-aware can be both a blessing and a curse - with many a late night spent tip-toeing around emotional landmines. But if there's one thing we can thank the last two years for, it's been space and time to nurture hard-won personal growth. "For the first time in my adult life, I do feel very wide-eyed towards everything in an oddly optimistic way for me," reflects Abrams about her current state of mind, and looking back on last year's release. "As 'Camden' spells out, I've definitely had a hard time until recently. Now I'm curious about not staying in the heaviness of a feeling, and right now I do feel like I'm trying to look for the light a bit more than I ever have before." Quite a major difference between her debut EP and most recent body of work, Abrams now finds herself planting roots and choosing to heal in plain sight, shutting out external pressures while considering the future, and challenging herself to stay in the present - just like the spirited heroine of any Hayao Miyazaki film.
COUP DE MAIN: I love 'This Is What It Feels Like'. I love that it's so unapologetically loud with 'main character: point of view', and I think it's so important that women be able to take up time and space to detail their subjective emotional experiences - especially like how you do in 'Alright'.
GRACIE ABRAMS: Thank you. That's really nice of you to say, that means a lot. It was a super cathartic writing experience, for that reason, I think.
CDM: At this very moment in time, what does it feel like to be Gracie Abrams?
GRACIE: I'm stoked and grateful. Just in general, right now, to have really gotten out touring, and putting this project out, they were two very scary things earlier this year for me to think about and to have gotten through both and to feel proud of both of those things makes me very relieved. And I also think that it's definitely helped me think about work in general; knowing that I'm capable of touring and writing a project. Obviously, last year was so confusing and disorienting and scary for all of us, and I think I really fell into a headspace that led me to be anxious in a massive way about everything and I'm so much less of that these days. I just feel massively relieved across the board and just really grateful that people have listened to the music and that they're nice about it so far. It's been lucky.
CDM: What's the significance of Maine to you, having named songs on your latest project after cities/towns located there - Rockland, Camden, and Augusta?
GRACIE: It's my favourite place in the world, my mom's family is from there, and I grew up being there all the time. I still go every year. Now, as a more grown-up person who can somewhat dictate her own schedule, I'm very intentionally making more space for me to be there because it is so good for me, mentally, and I learned that this past year right before I went to [Aaron Dessner's] Long Pond [Studio] for the first time. I had been in Maine for a week and hadn't really travelled since the pandemic before then, and had been in LA trying to figure out what my next move would be with music and feeling weird pressures and a lot of self-doubt, and when I got to Maine, like the second I got there, I just started writing again in the way that I did when I was 16, where it was just five minutes between anything I would be writing. It just came constantly and I hadn't felt that impulse in a year and a half since 'Minor' came out. It was cleansing. I don't know how else to describe it. It was the most necessary kind of space and I feel so lucky to have had it, and when I got to Long Pond, Aaron and I, every song that we made we just named all of the demos after different towns in Maine. On the first day, we were like, 'Hmmm, let's go, let's do that.' And then it just stuck for the entire week. So we have many, many songs that cover the state of Maine, and it's very funny.
CDM: In 'Camden' you say, "I can’t picture anything past 25." Why is 25 a significant age for you?
GRACIE: I hadn't really said that out loud until I wrote it, so it was funny to explain even in the room to Aaron, who doesn't ask many questions when I have lyrics, but we did talk about it a little bit. As an anxious person with OCD [Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder], there are lots of intrusive thoughts that are pretty common, and that's definitely one of them. I've been lucky to have help and support in that way, but definitely, growing up I had a lot of trouble imagining an adult life beyond that age. On some days it is in a completely calm way, but other days it's in a more intrusive and threatening, kind of self-destructive, scary sense. In general, I am like, 'Oh, I love being vulnerable with the people that listen to my music because it makes me feel closer to them,' but when I wrote 'Camden' I definitely felt a slight hesitation just because it sort of touches on a bit of a more vulnerable... it's about the inside of my head, versus me in relationship to somebody else, so I was quite nervous about that one.
CDM: You also say, "I’ve never said it but I know that I / I bury baggage 'til it's out of sight." Is songwriting your way of leaving the wound open to examine and help heal in plain sight, instead of bottling everything up?
GRACIE: Definitely. There are pros and cons to writing because the actual relief of getting something off my chest, even if it's to no one but myself, like down on a piece of paper, it makes me feel like I'm bottling things less - but at the same time, sometimes I get stuck in these patterns of spiralling about little things over and over and over again so that it feels extra loud, and I'm kind of blowing something out of proportion irrationally. Which I actually think is okay, when I'm keeping it contained to writing, for example, because that version of an outlet has been what has kept me sane ever since I can remember. So, yes; short answer.
CDM: Advice columnist Ann Landers once said: "Hanging onto resentment is letting someone you despise live rent-free in your head." Is writing your way of building a new home for resentment and other hard feelings to live in - one that you can choose to visit if you want to, but is removed from your present?
GRACIE: Yes, for sure. And I think I have noticed that being true most recently with this project because it does feel like 'This Is What It Feels Like' is a home to all of the different stages that I was at last year. Where I can go back and listen and remember exactly how I felt, but I'm not carrying it with me day to day right now. I do feel more than I did with 'Minor' even, that releasing this project did feel like closure for me personally, but I'll have to let you know how it feels touring this music because it's different. When I wrote 'Minor' it was right off the back of a really hard breakup. For me, it was easier to get over the breakup, than it was for me to move on from the state in which I was in alone. It just felt different and harder. So the thought of singing about those days, every day for a month and a half in the spring, when I'm going to be touring? It's like, 'Oh, I wonder what that's gonna be like?' But hopefully, with the clearing it out of my system in the way that I was lucky enough to do by putting it out, I think it's now okay. I think I'll be good.
CDM: You'll just need a really good weighted blanket to take on tour.
GRACIE: Exactly. I literally just bought a Gravity Blanket for tour. I'm not even kidding, this past week, and that will be on my bunk every day.
CDM: Is it easy to confuse missing someone versus missing how they made you feel?
GRACIE: Yup. Yes. I have done that. I think I do that still. It's really confusing when you're not in a direct dynamic with someone anymore. As people, I think we love comfort, and when you've known something so well, it can leave you feeling empty if you don't have it anymore. But sitting in that feeling of emptiness is important in order to recognise that you maybe don't need someone to the extent that you thought you did. I think it's just part of becoming an independent person, like, a grown-up human being. I'm definitely learning how to do it every single day.
CDM: Also, why can’t we just miss people? Why do we have to cope?
GRACIE: Yeah! Correct!
CDM: Emotional calls/bids are every tiny attempt you make to connect with someone else - be it an attempt to get affection, affirmation, attention, empathy, or any other emotional need from the other person. Like in 'For Real This Time' when you say, "Couldn't you tell when I was off? You never asked what it was." That was an ignored or misunderstood emotional call. Is emotional fluency key to the longevity of relationships?
GRACIE: Probably, I'm sure to a degree, but I also think that when I was younger, I would do the thing of acting a certain way to see if there would be a reaction, versus being like, 'Hey, I feel these things, can we talk about it?' And I hope that is maturing. I hope that that's what that is because I know that it feels better. It's unfair to do the thing of playing mind games that only you know are being played. You know what I'm saying?
CDM: It's like you're testing them.
GRACIE: Exactly, which is so deeply unfair. And when I've participated in that in the past, and I reflect on it later, I'm like: no one can read my mind, that something from two weeks ago has been bothering me and it's boiled up so much inside because I've not chosen to be proactive and say something. And so then comes the resentment, and that's not fair. So I definitely look to be more straightforward in my relationships across the board, whether it be friendships, or romantic relationships, or work relationships. I think it probably makes everything feel better across the board when you can just say how you feel, but I know that that's really hard. Like, I'm only just getting semi-comfortable with telling people what's in my head.
CDM: My kitten will cry until you pick her up and cradle her; I always feel like I'm embodying her when I'm trying to get someone's attention.
GRACIE: That's exactly right. It's totally true. My dog does the same thing. And I always feel like that when they just sit and they're like: <puppy dog eyes>. It's so funny. Luckily, we are humans with voices that can talk and communicate. That's a big advantage.
CDM: In 'Scenes From A Marriage', Jessica Chastain says: "At the beginning, everything is shiny and new and nothing can hurt you, but then you realise anything can hurt you." Is the worst thing about relationships, surviving them?
GRACIE: It's so strange. I've been in the same relationship for almost six years--
CDM: With Blake [Slatkin]?
GRACIE: Yes, with Blake, and I feel very young to have been in such a long-term/serious relationship. He and I talk about that very openly, and he's my best friend, so I feel very little fear about that kind of thing. But I do know that: I've learned that every day it's like you are choosing that person, and the choice to be together, and the choice to be in a contest of generosity with each other. I think that's what I admire about healthy relationships in general, because it's so hard, people change every single day all the time. Especially when you're in these developmental stages like he and I are in. It's tricky. But I feel very lucky that I get to choose him still, and that we are surviving, so far.
CDM: It's the difference between maybe previously thinking that love was just something that might happen to you, and now realising that it's a constantly active decision you make to be in love?
GRACIE: 100%. It's so strange.
CDM: Conflict is unavoidable in any meaningful relationship. Do you think it's important to know how to fight in a healthy way, in any kind of relationship?
GRACIE: Yeah, and I have talked a lot about this in therapy this past year - knowing yourself well enough to notice when you're boiling up inside and figuring out the best ways to respectfully take a step back and evaluate the situation and where you stand in it before reacting. Response versus reaction is something that I am very interested in, just personally; trying to find growth in that, and I am not a very angry person. But I love healthy confrontation, I think it's so massively important. I've been lucky that there have been very few memorable fights in my life that I can remember, when you ask that question, but yeah, for sure, how to maintain relationships is like being able to have healthy conflicts, but also then noticing too, when something is super fundamental and not right for you, and to be able to stand your ground. But I'm definitely learning about that actively.
CDM: What was running through your mind while writing 'The Bottom'?
GRACIE: Full transparency: Blake and I were on very different planets mentally and emotionally last year, and I knew that, and I spent a lot of time by myself thinking that I was going to be the reason that he wouldn't thrive as hard. I felt very frustrated with myself being in that relationship for a few months last year because I felt a lot of guilt that I wasn't doing as well as I wanted to, or being as positive as I felt like he deserved, or whatever. It was a really fascinating headspace to live in for a little while, but it had nothing to do with him. When that happens, very often it's stuff that I needed to work through on my own, and take the time to understand why I felt like an issue in my past led me to feel fearful of being bad for someone for whatever reason. It's a specific type of insecurity, along with these intrusive thoughts, like with my OCD, and whatever else, so I wanted to write about it because that's how I live and breathe. I liked the idea of making it sound fun. 'The Bottom' is definitely the brightest sounding song on the project, and that was intentional. To feel like you're failing someone who you love so much is a really dark feeling, and I was like, 'Well, wouldn't this be funny for me at least to remember that time if it sounds nothing at all like how it felt?' So it's very self-deprecating lyrics.
CDM: It's like: Right person wrong time.
GRACIE: Totally. Exactly right. But yeah, we got through it.
CDM: One of the characters in the TV series 'Only Murders In The Building' says: "We’re all driven to re-create the dynamic of our first wound, so we can change the ending." Do you agree or disagree with that?
GRACIE: Wow, I hope that's not true. I feel like something that I've picked up on about getting older is to right-size all of my experiences and my relationships, versus making them a key player. A couple of years ago I would have been like, 'Yes and good,' but I hope, right now, I try to approach everything as clean slate as possible. And I love the idea of having new kinds of relationships across the board that have never yet existed for me yet. I don't know why, but for the first time in my adult life, I do feel very wide-eyed towards everything in an oddly optimistic way for me. As 'Camden' spells out, I've definitely had a hard time until recently. Now I'm curious about not staying in the heaviness of a feeling, and right now I do feel like I'm trying to look for the light a bit more than I ever have before. I do love that quote, though. It's very interesting. But I hope to not participate so heavily in that kind of pattern. I love the idea of not falling back into the old habits and relationships, to then manipulate your own thing, but I get why that would work. I get why that would be satisfying. Like, mentally/emotionally. And I've definitely done it in the past, but I hope to move on from that behaviour.
CDM: Who in your life do you most admire for the way that they move through the world?
GRACIE: My mom, for sure, she's really epic. And I really admire her as I've gotten older, just because she's someone that when I was growing up, I felt was always right about everything. And she mostly always is, but it's really cool to me to see someone who is as smart as she is, and as confident in herself as she is, but who also is totally accountable when she does something wrong or whatever. And I'm very inspired by that. One of the things that I've tried to grow out of as I've gotten older, is defensiveness because I think it's a really unattractive quality. It also just kind of suggests that you have nothing else to learn in a situation and that's definitely never been true about me. But when I was little, I used to kind of act that way in certain situations, and to have a mother figure in my life who is not defensive and who is fully accountable for all things, I'm just so inspired by her on a daily basis. I should probably tell her. I should tell her that to her face.
CDM: Write her a song.
GRACIE: Exactly.
CDM: You were studying mass incarceration at Barnard College in New York, right? Why was that something you wanted to study?
GRACIE: I just hadn't been in an environment where it was possible to spend that many hours learning about something that I didn't know enough about, and I felt very lucky that it was accessible to me as a student there, so I felt just really fascinated and driven and I had heard amazing things about the professor. And those were all affirmed, I learned, sitting in his classes. I desperately miss Barnard, for that reason. I miss an environment with so many curious young people who are so much smarter than me, and to be in environments where everybody's asking all the questions all the time, and there's access to information that is so crucial in order for us to fucking get our shit together. I loved my time there so much.
CDM: What can you tell me about your album that you've started working on? I saw you tease on Instagram more music with Aaron...
GRACIE: It has sort of been an accident that we started as aggressively as we did. I just got back from being there for two weeks, and I guess the only thing that I know to even say about it yet, is that I feel like the music that will come from this will be the album and I think it'll be the first time that I've been in a good headspace mentally. I've been very surprised by the music, for that reason. But also, not surprised, by how much I love it. Because everything that I make with Aaron feels like it somehow already existed and we are just uncovering it kind of. The music that he plays alone totally dictates what and how I'm going to write that day, and to have found a partner, musically, in that way, has absolutely just opened my mind up to more than I knew I wanted to ever do. On the third day this past trip, I was thinking about putting this music out, and it was the first time that I ever felt brave at the idea of releasing something because it just doesn't feel like anything else. To me, right now, it's so specific - SO what I love about music, and it's funny, as a young adult, to have kind of gotten to a place where I'm not sitting in the studio thinking about other artists that I love, to try to reference, or certain sounds from other songs that I feel are inspiring. I love to do that too, but this stuff feels like it really just came out, and so I'm nervous and very much in love with it.
CDM: Gracie, you've come so far!
GRACIE: I'm not, like, hiding... hiding away and journaling.
Gracie Abrams' latest project 'This Is What It Feels Like' is out now.
Watch the music video for 'The Bottom' below...
